Catelynn Lowell Talks Abortion.
It’s no doubt that Catelynn is as pro-life as pro-life gets, even in instances of rape. Catelynn posted this picture, emphasizing that she views it as an “eye opener”.
A fan responded, and this is what Catelynn had to say.
Fan: For as long as its daddy isn’t a rapist… I understand your point.
Catelynn: Nope I’ve meet many adopted children that come from experiences like that. Just b/c there dad was messed up they can’t live?
Fan: I know, I understand, but mommies’ mental health after rape can damage the baby (lack of dopamine, for instance)…
Catelynn: That’s a poor excuse to kill a innocent child..
Those are some pretty bold opinions that generally lead to some heated debates, but the conversation ended there and both parties walk away with their pride and dignity in tact.
What do you think?
I 100% agree with Caitlynn since I was raped and picked adoption.
Wow. She should stick to putting oversized toddler flowers in her hair instead of giving opinions on this type of stuff. What an ignorant statement. Saying that you have ANY knowledge of what it’s like to go through rape is disgusting and insulting. She should be ashamed. I can not even begin to fathom the emotional and mental stress a woman must face once finding out she became pregnant after being raped. It’s like trying to tell a combat soldier that their PTSD from choosing to save themselves instead of going back for their best friend isn’t that bad and that they’re just being dramatic…….except it’s like 100x worse than that. That woman will probably agonize over that decision for the rest of her life in a way Catelynn will NEVER even be able to begin to understand, no matter how many kids she gives up for adoption. For Catelynn to make such a statement is absolutely disgraceful and ludicrous. Just lost a ton of respect for her.
Completely agree with Catelynn. It is still a baby… the method of conception does not change the meaning of life! why should the baby be punished because the mother cannot handle it… ya I’d feel bad for her but not as bad as for the murdered child. where does it end… an infant is completely dependent on the mother as well if they are struggling emotionally then and cant handle it does it give them the right to take the infant’s life…. no difference. She is totally right and I really admire her for standing up for what she believes in, it isn’t always easy and can’t be any easier being in the public eye.
Kaylie why should a child die because of the way they were created? You should be ashamed of what you said. Try having a little respect for other peoples veiws. She’s not saying it’s not emotional hell for a woman after she is raped she is saying it’s no reason to kill an innocent baby that did nothing to deserve death. Even if you don’t believe that a child is a child from conception respect that she does and don’t say such awful things. Abortion is the selfish decision. Most people who are pro choice agree with that. I understand why a victim of rape would want to and in that situation it’s understandable but in the eyes of myself and like minded people it is still very wrong. Although I personally think murder is in the mindset and very few women that get abortions have a malicious mindset.
abortion is NOT a selfish decision, good god, you are not doing it because you want to kill a baby. you’re doing it because it’s best for you AND the potential child. no one that is pro choice agrees that is selfish, they believe that although perhaps they wouldn’t get one, it is a choice and would never shame others for it. they don’t see it as selfish at all. to say that is extremely ignorant and you should be ashamed of what you said.
No most pro choice people I know agree that it is the easy way out. Death is never what’s best for the child. How can you even think abortion is ever what is best for the child even if you believe that they are not children in early pregnancy. Excludeing rape situations it is ducking out of your responsiblilities. It is having sex and not wanting to deal with the result. It’s much less selfish in a rape case because obviously they didn’t do anything to cause the pregnancy but it is still not thinking of the beating heart inside of you. Now I personally don’t think badly of a woman who gets one in the first couple months for a medical reason or if they were raped but a woman that terminates a pregnancy because she just doesn’t want to deal with the consequences of her choices is selfish. And I do use the word murder for someone that’s gets a late term abortion. No one with half of a brain can argue that a late term baby is not in fact a baby.
I just think that to shame a woman who was raped & had an abortion is wrong. So what they have to deal
With the trauma of being raped & then go through an entire pregnancy that is a DAILY reminder of what happened to
Them & then deal with giving a baby up for adoption? Something that catelynn should understand more than anyone, since she has struggled with her decision for how long now? Abortion as a form of contraception is wrong but it’s not so black and white all the time.
Catelynn will NEVER know the stuggles of being raped AND having an Adoption plan! I’m sorry but I believe abortions are wrong whatever the reason other than it would kill the mother and child. I have been through adoption AND rape! Yeah its hard but I would never have an abortion!
psymja…please explain how death is in the “child’s best interests.” This should be good.
It is a selfish decision in 99% of cases. To think differently is ignorant and naive.
Trina_kaye… But not everybody is as strong as you are. Some
People may not be able to handle both.
What about a 12-13 year old girl who was raped and got pregnant? Even worse, what if the doctor said that she (or a woman at any age) would die in child birth for some reason? Is it really fair to make a young girl go through birthing a baby she had no say in conceiving or have a woman die in birth and possibly leave her family in bad condition? Imagine if the father cannot work and they only live on the mother’s support (which is good enough). If she dies, there goes everything. There goes her other kids’ mother. How is that fair? Not everyone who is raped and gets pregnant is at an age or maturity level to understand it, accept it, bear it, and parent/adopt. I don’t think it is selfish at all for a woman who could die in child birth to choose her life over the child. I am pro-choice. I do not really like abortion because some women do abuse it… they go out and stupidly have unprotected sex and get pregnant and get abortions. But I do think it should be allowed for people in tough circumstances or even for people who were using protection and it failed. Despite it being a blessing maybe they still don’t want a baby and don’t want to give birth just to give the child away. Whatever the reason, it’s a woman’s body and her own choice. If you want to think it’s murder, don’t get one. But don’t ruin it for others who may not agree with you. Whether it is murder or not is only a matter of opinion.
I’m sorry but what….. “don’t ruin it for others who may not agree with you”….that is such a stupid comment. I really just don’t understand some of you guys who are pro choice… you all say the same that it is the woman’s body but it is also the child’s body. Yes it is small and dependent on the mother but technically so is an infant. Infants cannot care for themselves, but do you think it is okay to kill them if emotionally the women can’t handle it right then. I understand that rape is extremely traumatic and yes I would feel bad a woman who was raped and ended up pregnant…. but just cause she is having a hard time does not give her the right to take a child’s life… a child that did not do anything wrong or participate in any way to it’s creation.
Amberbear you say that you think its okay to have an abortion if you have used protection and it failed… maybe if you are not adult enough to handle the responsibility of parenting a child or of putting it up for adoption then you are not adult enough to be having sex…
I am so sorry, but to you people who are going on and on about this, you have no idea what it’s like to be hurt by a man and then have to carry its spawn. Except you Trina_Kaye. No thank you. I wouldn’t want that mans child in my body for anything in the world. It would constantly remind me of the trauma. Why should the victim then be forced to deal with yet ANOTHER trauma of adopting that baby out and knowing her child was out in the world for the rest of her life? Catelynn is stupid for evening talking about something she knows nothing about. Adoption yes, that was right for her adn in most instances I completely agree…Adoption is best. Not after you have already been victimized enough though.
Anybody posting in this thread dictating what another woman should do with their body, are the ones that should be ashamed of themselves. Honestly, nobody is killing a baby in abortion. It’s a cluster of cells together that aren’t even a live baby, but instead a fetus. Get over it. A few years back at a local hospital a girl had been raped and was essentially forced by her mother to carry the baby. Not only did she have to deal with the trauma of her rape, she dealt with the trauma of carrying a baby for 9 months, going through childbirth and then giving that baby up for adoption. She hung herself not even a week later. So yeah, I put the value of her life way ahead of the cluster of cells that formed after she was raped. If you’re strong enough, than all the power to you. But for someone who has been raped, it’s an awful lot to go around running your mouth telling someone else how to deal with the after effects. You, of all people, should be a hell of a lot more understanding.
I don’t think anyone is trying to make it seem like being raped is any less awful than it is. We’re just saying that it is no excuse to kill an innocent child. What did that baby do? Nothing. Why does the baby deserve to die? Of course none of us that have not been raped can truly understand what it’s like. Of course it would be difficult to carry the baby but it’s not just the mans baby. It’s the mothers. Making an adoption plan for the child would turn a purely bad situation into something joyful. Why create another victim? And amberbear im confused as to what you mean when you say what if a woman does not want to have the baby? If that is refering to women that were not raped it is bull shit. If they don’t want the baby they shouldn’t have sex.
Oh and all this “it’s the womans body so it her choice” is wrong. This is simple science. I don’t remember if it’s hours or days after the fertilized egg attaches to the wall that the baby forms itt’s own dna strand. Seperate from the mothers. Meaning that baby is not a parrt of the mothers body. The arguement is if that body is a viable hman being or not but it cannot be reasonabley argued that the baby is a part of the mothers body.
Trempettes. You are very ignorant on this subject. I don’t say that as an insult I say that because you don’t know what you are talking about. Why don’t you go on babycenter.com and look at a week by week tracker of a babys development in the womb. The site has nothing to do with abrtion so you will only be seeing pure undeniable facts. If you still don’t feel that the baby is a viable human being after you educate yourself then you have that right but don’t go blabbering on about a clumo of cells. The baby is a living being. These are medical facts. Not opinions. If you argue with a fact it is not an opinion you are just wrong.
All those things listed are endangered and should be protected. We have enough assholes.
The fact is we have freedom of choice. No propaganda will take that away from us.
Yes hayzii tahts true and abortion is probably never going to be outlawed entirely but the way our laws stand are sick. Most states still allow late term and partial birth abortion and I never never personalyl met someone who doesn’t think that is murder. I’ve only read about them and they seem prety crazy. The other huge problem is there are very few states with a limit on how many a woman can get. Personally I think if a woman gets more than one she should be sterilized. Now thats not likely to come to law but hopefully we as a nation can get a limit on them. I know a woman that had 7 abortions, one was twins, in less than 2 years. I don’t know anyone that could approve of that.
I am pro-choice, but I have no issue with people who are pro-life as long as they are also respectful of my stance. This is just one of those topics that is so controversial that the conversations never end well because people get upset about it.
I take little of what Catelynn says to heart because her opinion means absolutely nothing to me. I think she gets treated as if she is little miss amazing because she gave her child up for adoption. The girl says some stupid stuff that comes off as being a know it all when in reality she is just as clueless as many her age. She needs to stick to getting her education instead of trying to give advice to others over twitter.
I agree she’s on a high horse cause she gave Carly up. And peopel just keep lifting that horse higher and higher.
honestly, if she was never on teen mom or 16 & pregnant she wouldn’t have said that at all.
I think people need to watch the movie if walls can talk that movie is sad and show you that abortion is not this black and white issue .People can agree and disagree with the choice of abortion maybe abortion is not for you. And that’s fine but to shamed others who do get abortions for whatever reasons is just wrong. At the end of the day no one is god he is the one that judge everyone and that person who decide to have abortion. It is the hardest decision they have to make I think people seems to think that having abortions is like buying a new pair of shoes to have an abortion for any reasons is hard on that women . People think that catelynn and Tyler taken the easy way out. By putting Carly up for adopt so for catelynn who has the whole judging her she should have been more respectfully to others choices just like some people are very support and respectfully of hers .She is entitlement to her opinion. But when you opinion is to make others for ashamed for their decisions is wrong I believe that tweet she did was just that and catelynn needs to get off her high horse and be more open minded to other people. Just like how are others are to her and Tyler situation like I said you don’t have agree but you can still respectfully of others and not call women murders
Sex is a natural part of a relationship and when two adults are older and understand the risks and protect themselves, then I believe if pregnancy happens because birth control failed and they don’t want to have the child, they have every right to have an abortion. I don’t believe people 25, 26, 27 years old shouldn’t have sex married or not because they are not responsible. Some people may not be ready to have a baby. They may be in the middle of grad school and cannot take the time to go through the physical and mental and emotional stress it takes to have a baby to even put the baby up for adoption.
Fact is, someone had an abortion somewhere today. Did you know about it? No? Yeah, of course not because it doesn’t affect you or me. It has no impact on our life. It does not hurt you if someone chooses that path. It does hurt the person who feels that abortion is the best option for them if other people’s agendas prevent them from doing what is best. If you don’t like abortion, don’t get one.
And I agree, Caitlyn is on a high horse because she gave birth and chose adoption. Big deal, many other people do that too. But some choose another path and that is fine, too. No one should judge them for it. I know for a fact that choosing abortion is no easier than choosing adoption and that person lives with guilt. No need to kick others while they are down if they choose that path.
Sex makes babies. If you can’t deal with the baby don’t have sex. Even with birth control there is a chance. That’s just fact. And it is not about something hurting us personally. It’s about protecting children from those who would hurt them. And for the record it does hurt me. Everytime I see pictures of dead children I cry. I bawled my eyes out when I learned that an ex friend had an abortion after I told her iwould take the baby. It is hurting the child with no voice.
Totally on Catelynn’s side!
It’s so incredibly ironic to me that everyone who defends abortion was born.
Also, for anyone who is so moronically dense enough to believe that a baby is just a “cluster of cells” (read: a reason to suck its brains out), here:
http://www.jillstanek.com/2007/03/bethanys-baby/
oh and for the record what Cate said was a poor excuse was that the mothers depression hurting the baby. Don’t use concern for the child as an excuse for killing him or her.
In 31 states, a rapist has automatic parental rights to any child that comes from the sexual acts that he committed. That gives them the right to block and adoption, and that also gives them visitation rights. In most prisons, the only person that can bring them for visitation is the parent or legal guardian, also known as the victim. And we have the right to defend abortion in the same way that you have a right to condemn it. The fact is, that until you’ve been put in that situation, you have no right to pass judgment on anybody. Even then, that still doesn’t give you the right because not everybody feels or lives the same way you do. If you really want abortions to end, then fight for more affordable birth control and better sex education in schools. That’s the root of the problem that people are ignoring.
No father has automatic rights unless he is married to the mother so that’s wrong. Until the mother puts him on the birth certificate or a dna test is done no father has any legal right to his child. A personal friend of mine tried to stop his sons mother from giving the baby up for adoption but since she denied he was the father he had to go through a whole bunch of crap (mostly waiting for the adoptive parents to honor a freakin court order and she up for the test) to prove he was the father and b that time brody was about 7 months old and already settled in his home with his adoptive parents and the judge said it was in his best intrest to stay with the parents he knew. They we’re dicks though. They knew from the start the dad wanted him and didn’t care. I’ve never heard of another case when the dad tried to block the adoption but I can promise an unmarried man has no rights until the mother gives him rights or he fights like hell for them
And that’s really not a good case for abortion. I agree you have just as much of a right to your veiws as I do mine but those laws just need to die. I mean take abortion off the table and those laws are still sickening. Fucker rapes mamma who’s to say he won’t rape the kid.
To pro-choicers, (This is a catch-all post because I don’t feel like responding to each pro-choicer individually)
#1. Please explain to me what it is that you think humans breed in their bodies if not a human child. Also, define the term “fetus.”
#2. “Freedom of choice” does not apply when another human being is harmed or killed due to that choice. That’s why murder, assault, battery, rape, molestation, etc. are illegal in this country.
#3. You and everyone else in this world judges people all the time based on appearance, attitude, actions, etc. People naturally judge other people. Get over it. You do it too. And It’s not about playing “God.” It’s about protecting human life.
#4. Pregnancy is 100% preventable. If people don’t want to have children,don’t have sex or use two forms of birth control every time. Otherwise, an abortion is an irresponsible and selfish decision (excluding cases of rape or life of the mother).
#5. Fact is, someone somewhere abused a child today. Did it affect your life? No? Well let’s make it legal because that must mean it’s okay. If that example doesn’t demonstrate to you why that logic is faulty, you’re beyond help.
^THANK YOU
The diversity of comments and opinions is amazing to see! though i dont agree with alot of these opinions, some of which are being passed off as facts, its great to see women, and probably some girls, are considering these situations before they happen.
but whether you are pro choice or not, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and to not be attacked over it. im pro choice and proudly so. a womans body is her own choice. abortion is not the easy way out, the selfish decision or murder. its a medical procedure to exacuate the products of conception under a certain gestational age. legalized abortion is an important victory for all women, whether or not you agree with it. its totally unfair to expect another woman to what YOU want with her body, regardless of why you feel the way you do.
Keep it respectful girls!
Lol, ignorant? I have a BScN, so I know what I’m talking about when it comes to the Human Body. The does life begin at conception or at birth has been debated for a very long, long, time. I know what happens week by week in a pregnancy. I am a teen mom and abortion was not the choice I made for myself, but just because it wasn’t the right choice for me, doesn’t mean I have the right to go and tell someone else what the right choice is. When I go pregnant, I went to plan parenthood to figure out what all of my options were, and I’m so grateful that I heard ALL my options, because I felt better and more informed about my decision that I made, which was to parent. But there were people of all ages and races and ethnicities in PP, and I honestly don’t understand how you can be a woman and literally believe that a fetus – a cluster of cells – takes more importance of someone else. And for everyone saying that a baby shouldn’t be punished and be killed in the case of rape – what, the woman deserves to be punished by carrying her rapists child? Did you know that in some states, a rapists can LEGALLY have rights to that child and then prevent the mother from putting their baby up for adoption? Look this up, because its happening. So please, tell me, how a child being conceived through rape, and then being carried by a mother who may always resent that child for what it represents (and if you haven’t been raped don’t even TELL me that a mother can resent the child she is carrying if it is a product of rape, because you have no idea what it is like to be raped) and then that child gets passed off to be raised by a rapist. Or if that mother chooses to parent the child, that the rapist still has legal rights to that child and therefore, will always be involved in the victims life as a result. What you are saying in this situation, is who cares about her, because the baby is alive and even if it has an awful life, who cares. Because it survived. Thats the thing with most of you pro-lifers, you care so freaking much about the baby before it’s even born, but then when it’s born you could give two craps what happens to it. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has a right to tell another person what they can or can’t do with their body. I don’t care. That is their choice, and their choice alone. Stay out of other people’s vaginas.
AnneMarie, you’re welcome. :)
ericauda, I really LOATHE the “her body” argument. It’s not only HER body. There is the body of another completely separate individual human being inside her body that is NOT her. So when a woman has an abortion, it is a choice that not only affects HER body but also HER CHILD’s body.
It is totally unfair to defenseless unborn children to allow irresponsible women to terminate their lives because they refuse to properly use protection and/or parent their offspring.
Legalized abortion is not a victory for women. It is a tragedy for the entire human race. 50 million+ children have been slaughtered due to abortion, and you think this is some sort of victory for women? Get a grip. What about all the females that have been killed due to abortion? Were they victorious too or just those women that were lucky enough to have a mother that gave them a chance at life?
trempettes, a fetus is not a “cluster of cells.” The dictionary definition of a fetus is: “An unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.” Read the part that calls it an “unborn human baby” at least 5 times so that it sinks in. Calling it a cluster of cells must make you feel better about it, but those children have the same genetic makeup as a full grown adult human being. They are tiny humans.
You are pathetic and ignorant, and I feel like I’m really saying it nicely. If the woman in question would keep people out of her vagina, there wouldn’t be a baby in her uterus that she felt the need to kill right? So why don’t you go give your speech to the people that are actually the problem, i.e. the people getting abortions, and save your self-righteous indignation against people who want to protect human life for the pro-abortion coalition.
Also, WHO do you think you are to say that pro-life people don’t care about children after their born? I mean honestly, are you mentally deficient or is this a joke?
For everyone who thinks if you are not ready to have a baby then you shouldn’t have sex, I hope you never had sex without the intention of making a baby. Majority of the time most people are not having sex to make a baby. Welcome to the real world. Sex is normal in a relationship. Its something our body craves. It’s psychological and physical closeness with a partner. It’s the ultimate intimacy and desire. There is nothing wrong with having sex without wanting to have a child. Saying that you shouldn’t have sex if you don’t want a baby is basically saying sex is for making babies and only that. But it’s not. It’s pleasurable. Let me say the difference between say a teen and someone my age (25) having sex with someone is the fact I am not ignorant. I know the risks (and can handle any consequences if they occur) and use protection. The problem with teens is that most DON’T use protection. Mentally teens are in a stage where they might know risks to things (sex, drinking and driving, drugs, etc) but think it will never happen to them. Older people know better (usually).
I am pro-choice, proud, and have no problem with people who want to be against abortion. Like I said, just don’t get one if you don’t like it. But my close friend had an abortion, moved far away and got therapy to deal with guilt. She had a really good reason to get one. I was pro-choice before hearing her story, and I am even more firm on my belief after hearing it. If a woman can go through the 9 months physically and mentally and go through labor and give their baby to another family, great. But some people just can’t. And for pro-lifers, no excuse will ever be good enough. That’s why you are all pro-life. If there was an excuse good enough, you would be pro-choice.
My thing with rape, I can only imagine the horror of it for the woman. It’s bad enough her right to say no was taken away and she was violated, but the last thing I would want if it were me would be anyone, especially someone who doesn’t even know me or my situation, to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. That I have to give birth despite the fact I didn’t want a baby. My right to say no was taken away, and now the right to live my life in my way is taken away because I must endure 9 months of pregnancy and giving birth with the possibility of putting the baby up for adoption and having that on my mind for the rest of my life? No. That is the last thing I would want… to have people tell me what to do or judge me for a decision I make. I would want to get my life back on track after that, not be forced to deal with consequences when I did nothing wrong. Neither did the unborn child, but I am the one living in the real world. And, as harsh as it sounds, for awhile, the unborn child is nothing but a parasite. It cannot live outside of the womb no matter what. I however can. I do. That is what makes a difference in my eye. I don’t have to be attached to another human to survive. You don’t have to see it that way, that’s fine. I do.
Had to stop reading the comments a little less than halfway through. Most of you are so disgustingly ignorant and have clearly been fed so much bullshit that I can’t stand it. As a former VERY AVID “PRO-LIFER,” consider what I’m about to say, because I have been in your shoes before (until I started paying attention to, you know, actual facts and human decency).
1. No babies or children are involved in abortion. Embryos, zygotes, and fetuses are. And abortion is not murder. Murder is the malicious and intentional killing of a sentient and autonomous human, which a fetus is not.
2. Sentience and personhood is a philosophy, not a science, and has no place dictating the rules in a country that is not a theocracy. Go to a theocracy if you care about this that much.
3. There is nothing wrong with being against abortion personally, but to make it illegal, emotionally manipulate/coerce women into staying pregnant, protesting in front of planned parenthoods, etc makes you anything BUT pro-life. Let’s not forget that the pro-life mentality is what killed Savita Hallapanavar recently. People can say all they want that there’s an exception to the abortion rule if the woman’s life is in danger, but that contradicts their philosophy. If they believe that, they’re admitting that the fetus is not equivalent to the mother. If they really believed in the protection of a “child,” they’d say “let whoever dies die, that’s what’s fair.”
4. I became pregnant by rape and went through with the pregnancy. It was insanely difficult, and I almost could not do it. But it would have been okay if I had had an abortion, because she was not a child then, not a baby. She was a non-sentient, non-autonomous fetus, and MY life, well-being, and safety was and always will be more important than any non-sentient non-autonomous fetus. Anyone who feels it’s okay to force a traumatized person into keeping a pregnancy is a shitty person. Even if you’ve been pregnant by rape and were able to do it with no problems, that’s you. That’s not every rape survivor, and honestly f*ck you for thinking you can dictate another survivor’s healing. Everyone is different. Everyone’s trauma experience is different. I have zero respect for Catelynne after this.
5. Many of you should read http://god-is-prochoice.tumblr.com/infolinks
I’m sure you’ve all simply been fed bullshit for a long time, and are actually bright enough to pull your heads out of your asses. I have faith in that.
There are so many unwanted children in this world. Our foster system in this country is just insane. I hope that every single one of you that are against abortion are also willing to take in some foster children. You are the same people that complain about all the people on welfare and all the young mothers who don’t take care of their children. If you aren’t willing to step up and take care of these children, then you have no right to tell anyone what they can or cannot do with their pregnancy.
Let me list the facts that I have stated. 1) a fetus/baby/zygote/whatever you call it has his or her own dna almost as soon as they are conceived. That makes it an undeniable scientific FACT that whatever is in that womans uterus is not a part of her body. 2) the baby could make be considered a cluster of cell for 2-3 weeks. After that calling it a cluster of cells is not an opnion it is just wrong. If you want to call the baby a fetus go ahead but there is no possible way to intelligently deny that the “products of ceception” is in fact a living being with a human form. Now. Amberbear. I had plenty of sex without intending on having a baby. Twice it resulted in pregnancy, once I was on the pill was I was being dumb. Now I lost the first one. I didn’t know I was prgnant until he died. Looked a lot like the baby in the link lauren posted. The second one is my daughter. Who I did not abort. I took care of my responsiblities and didn’t run away from them. I’m also currently pregnant but my husband and I planed this one so it doesn’t apply to the conversation. Ericauda. I get that everyone has right
s to their own opinion but please understand that my opinion is that from the moment of conception these children are in fact children with lives just as valuable as any child. Now as i said I believe murder is in the midset as long as it’s in the first trimester but I still feel that it is killing a child. Persoanlly i’ve found that scare tactic do nothing to prevent a woman from ending her pregnancy. When faced with an indecicive woman I simply get on babycenter show them exactly what is inside of them then find a webside with only medical images to show her just how the abortionwould be preformed. Then I ask her if she would like to hear about the after affects many women have emotionaly and physicaly. If she does I tell her. I don’t spew my opinion at her I just make sure she is educated about the choice she is aboutto make. And that’s not wrong of me. I don’t tell these women anything but real facts. Many, not all, pro choicers have gotten angry with me for doing so saying I am presureing the girls. And kayajoy I truely hope none of that hostility is directed at me. I have been nothing if not respectful to anyone of a different mind than me.
Kayajoy killed it. Sorry, you can all get off the internet now. Thanks for playing.
Also, you people who sit there and slander those who get abortions act like they get pregnant JUST TO GET AN ABORTION. No. That’s not the case. Not every woman in this country or on this earth wakes up and says “I’m going to get an abortion today! Hot diggity!”. Most of the time they dread it. They get cold feet. They regret it. But at the end of the day the realize it was best for THEIR SITUATION. Not your situation, their own. You are not them. You will never be them. So you should not make their choices for them, or criticize them for it. One of my very good friends recently went through with one and she said it was the most traumatizing experience and to this day she regrets it at times, but she knew it was what was best for her and the fetus.
What about the women who get to their 20 week anatomy scan and find out that the baby will not survive out of the womb? That it’s born without a major organ, or a defect that will literally cost it’s life as soon as you clip that umbilical cord? Why should a woman continue the next 20 weeks to get even more attached to a child that they’ll never be able to buy clothes and toys for? That they won’t be able to hold it and love it? It’d be easier to cut ties then.
You people do realize that our foster care and adoption services here in the US are not the greatest, right? That there are still plenty of children here and even in other countries that will never have a stable family? That they’ll bounce from foster home to foster home, stay in an adoption center, or be put with an abusive family, right? So why add more children to the cycle? People who are pro-life are the exact ones who complain about single mothers on welfare and whatever. Restricting abortions would just make you complain more because more women would end up being single mothers using government benefits.
Maybe birth control should be more regulated. That it should be free or low cost then. There would be fewer abortions if it were so. Maybe schools should teach teens about SAFE sex, rather than “don’t have sex”. Maybe there would be fewer abortions. Maybe society should teach people not to rape, rather than teach women how they can “avoid” getting raped. Then maybe there would be fewer abortions.
Trust me. You aren’t pro-life. You’re anti-choice. And choice is the one thing we have given to us.
LMAO @ cromeg. She DEFINITELY killed it. And you’re also right on all accounts. People would like it to be as simple as banning abortions, but it will NEVER be that simple. More women died when abortions were banned from DIY and back alley abortions than now because they have that option. So to say that abortion is the “easy way out” is ridiculous. Some of these women felt so desperate to not carry that baby they killed themselves in the process. It’s horrible the thought process of some of these people.
And telling a person that getting raped is a shitty excuse to have an abortion IS shaming the victim. Can you explain to me how it’s not. You’re telling them that their decision is shitty and to just deal?
As for the parental rights issue, that is state to state, hence why I said the 31 states thing. In the state of Nebraska, a father automatically has rights granted if he signs paternal acknowledgment. And here, it is JUST that easy to go to court and get a DNA test with no questions asked. If the mother refuses to comply with it, then she’s in contempt of court. So let this scenario play out. Girl gets raped and decides to have the child. Guy who raped her goes after her for visitation and tells her she has to show up for DNA test. She doesn’t comply, then she goes to jail and is punished for not wanting that man apart of her child’s life. She does comply, and it’s his, then he automatically has rights. Now he can sue for visitation. Which she also MUST comply with or go to jail. Really truly, either situation is a lose-lose for the mother.
Also Lisa135, if that is truly what you do, then there is nothing to be mad about. Believe it not, the abortion clinics will do the same thing to make sure that you know what you are doing. They actually by law have to explain the procedure to, especially when asked in detail. But if she tells you after you’ve explained all of that, that she still feels abortion is her best option, what do you do? Do you tell her that she’s wrong, what she’s doing is wrong, do you openly judge her, do you defriend her?
I went to an abortion clinic with a friend while she asked questions. They lied to her face. They told her her baby had no heartbeat and all kinds of untrue things. Suposed medical professionals tried to trick her into it. Im sure not all clinics do that I am not so foolish as to believe my local planed parenthood is the only one. I ended up taking her to a doctors office to get the real truth. Now after I do all that if she still isn’t sure then I take her to a local adoption agency to learn from the expert about all kinds of adoption and the pros and cons. I’ve only ever had one girl still do it after I was done teaching her things and her I did stop talking to because she did it at 17 weeks. She had that poor little baby cooked alive in salt. I only hope the saline finished him or her off. Frequently babies aborted that way will come out alive and be droped in a bucket of water. It wasn’t that she still did it it was when she did it that made me break away from her. She later called me after having a nightmare where she hard her baby screaming for her and I couldn’t find it in my heart to have sympathy for her. I tried to help but I couldn’t bringmyself to do it. And I have never stated that this was a black and white issue. I myself would consider it if my life was on the line because I have a nother child and a husband that need me. Idk if I would be it but I would think about it. Medical reason are a grey area. I also don’t seehow other bad laws mean we should keep something legal. The awnser to the fathers right situation is to change those laws. As far as kayajoy “killing it” how do you see that? Cause you guys like what she said. Kayajoy stated her opinions which she has every right to but that doesn’t make my opinions mean any less to me. The only thing that was rally fact is that yes medically these children are refered to as fetuses. However I myself despise that word. I feel it is used to dehumanize the children and I will not allow it to be used in reference to my kids. I fliped out on an er nuse that called my baby a fetus. I find it quite sad that kayajoy thinks I am a shitty person for puting a childs well being above the mothers yet I have not once called her a shity person when according to my beliefs she is supprting killing children. Kayajoy has never come off as that kind of person.
And just out of curiosity do you guys think the father has any say in this? In a non rape case of course. It’s his kid to. Just as much as the mothers. And there is no denying that is a non rape situation each party knowingly had sex which they knew could result in a pregnancy.
Oh and I only bitch about people that live off welfar forever and have no ambition or desire to suport themselves. Welfare should be a hand up. Not a hand out.
Lisa135- Plants and Fruit have their own DNA as well so even though an embryo has its seperate dna doesnt really mean much (not trying to sound harsh) and I completely agree with Kayajoy
Unless you have been raped you will never understand and even though you have everyones situation is different so there fore only form an opinion on what you have gone thru and not what others have gone thru
Kayajoy, lol @ your speech. I used to be pro-choice, but then I realized that cloaking a human life under the term “fetus” doesn’t actually make it not a living, growing individual human being. Sad you haven’t grasped that yet.
1. Please define the term fetus, and explain to me what you think that term means. Here’s a little help for you since you are apparently incapable of defining the terms that you use to support your argument. Fetus: “An unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.” So actually human babies ARE involved in abortion, according to the dictionary definition of a fetus. Just because you unilaterally assert that babies and children are not involved does NOT make that the case. In fact, most people can deduce that humans breed other humans inside their body. Playing semantics with the terms zygote and fetus doesn’t win the argument for you, especially since the dictionary clearly contradicts everything you said, as does basic logic and reason.
2. Pathetic. Simply pathetic. Do you apply that same thought process to gay marriage? Tell people to move to another country if it’s that important to them? Also, sentience and personhood are only a philosophy and not a reality if you are mentally incapable of piecing together that a live, growing, developing human being is alive. I mean that sounds like a pretty simple concept when I state it doesn’t it? You pro-choicers make the argument convoluted and then pretend that it’s too complicated for you to be able to make a decision. It’s not complicated. The child has a beating heart, human DNA, and a developing body/mind. These are all positive indicators of life.
3. That is COMPLETELY nonsensical. I cant believe people are actually patting you on the back for this. So being pro-life for ALL human children and not just the ones we personally create makes us…not pro-life? Please re-evaluate your argument because a 3rd grader could dismantle it. Also, pro-life people by and large see equivalence in cases of life of the mother and therefore do not think one life is more valuable than the other, so the mother has the choice as to whether to save herself or her child because both lives are equally valuable. Does that make sense?
4. I love when people say non-sentient as if they actually have ANY PROOF OF THAT whatsoever. You don’t. So stop saying it as if it is relevant. Actually, I have seen abortion videos where the child in question moves, flails, and jerks when the device used to kill him/her makes contact with skin, which would in fact indicate sentience. Additionally, you alluded to this so I’m just going to address it now — “non-autonomy.” This is a favorite argument of the pro-choice coalition. Let’s examine that. An infant is not autonomous. In fact, a toddler is not autonomous. Now if we’re going to discuss autonomy as it relates to living outside the womb, your argument still falls apart at the seams. 100 years ago a 21 week old fetus could not survive outside the womb. Today due to our medical and technological advancements, this has happened and that HUMAN BEING has gone on to live a full life. Your entire argument rests on the ability of the child to survive outside of the womb, which is dependent solely on our medical and technological advancements. Surely you see why it doesn’t make sense to use that as a defense. When a baby CAN survive outside of the womb at 4-6 weeks gestation, will it be a baby/child to you then?
Actually, you’re the one that’s been fed bullshit and propaganda for too long. Time to think outside the box again. Unborn children ARE in fact human and alive, thus deserve equal protections under the law. Abortion is a human rights violation.
Laughing my fucking ass off at everyone who still thinks this isn’t a human:
http://www.jillstanek.com/2007/03/bethanys-baby/
This baby was miscarried at SIX WEEKS, before a lot of women even find out they’re pregnant. Hmm looks a bit more like a “cluster of cells” to me.
Everyone pro-choice should have been aborted. It’s a victory for all women!
Yes lili that’s true but fruit is not a human. It is living but it is innanimate. And I am certianly not a botanist so I could be entirely wrong but if I remember from school the fruit of a tree has different dna than the tree itself. Either that or it’s the eeds that do. My point about the dna isn’t to prove personhood it is to show that medically and scientifically the baby is not a part of the mothers body as many pro choicers like to say. Personhood can never be proven or disproven. For me a human can never be anything other than a person. Yes there is an obvious difference between an egg that just attached and a newborn baby but there is also an obvious difference between a newborn and my 15 month old. Or between her and myself. Or myself and a 30 year old. We are all just at different stages of life. And lauren will you please stop being so damn hostile. Being civil works. All the facts are against abortion. Out of 17 girls I have helped through pregnancy I have saved 16 of those babies lives. That is without ridicule or rudeness. I was unfailingly kind to those girls and it worked. They understood that the children inside of them were no more clumps of cells than I am. That is 16 lives that I saved. 16 girls that send me pictures and thnk me endlessly for opening their eyes. Results don’t lie lauren. I have saved for children with pure facts than anyone I know of has with the shame or the god arguements.
More children* and keep in mind lauren that I have only been doing this for 3 years. Trust me. Just be nice.
Lisa, what the hell are you talking about? When did I use a “God argument”? The only thing I even said in reference to God is that we, pro-lifers, are not playing God. Additionally, you are free to respond to people however you like. I am sick of people claiming that pro-life people “don’t care about children after they’re born” which is what initially pissed me off. Then Kayajoy comes in here acting pretentious like no one that’s pro-life could possibly be educated or form a well reasoned and rational point. Take a look at what I’m responding to. It’s not like see people are being AT ALL respectful of people like me, so why should I sugar coat what I think for them? Also I don’t think any of the people here are actually considering an abortion at the moment and are on the fence about it. I’m more concerned about changing the laws on abortion. I’m not in a position to counsel young women on their choices.
I brought up the god arguement because that’s what a lot of people use. Not saying that you are. I unerstand how annoying people like her are but in order to change laws we have to change minds. These people are mostly brainwahsed by all the planed parenthood media. Its just a clump of cells, makingit out like adoption is a bad thing. Then they have ben convinced that if a woman doesn’t have the right to abort she has no right at all and it’s onl going to get worse. Obama is the most radically pro abortion president we have ever had. He not only approves of early term abortion but wants women to believe that as long as the cord is intact the child is not living. He is suporting partial birth abortion like crazy. Women has been convinced that right to abortion is empowering and by tearing them down you are only going to make them more defensive. Every single fact about this is on our side. And those facts will change nearly every single mind if presented properly. We live in a democracy, which means we vote. Every mind changed is a vote for life and for children. People need to see what an awful practice this is. Soooooooooo many people say that they think it’s wrong but would never tell someone else what to do. That’s the big hurdle. The people who are to afriad to be judged that they won’t stand for what they believe. Kill them with kindness.
You are wrong Lauren. I was on the fence. I have decided, in your honor, to go through with the abortion of little AnneMarie Lauren. You know why? Because I CAN. Suck on that, bitch.
You are wrong Lauren. I was on the fence. I have decided, in your honor, to go through with the abortion of little AnneMarie Lauren. You know why? Because I CAN. Suck on that, b!tch.
Look who’s being a bitch just cause. There’s no need for that.
Lisa, it’s people like “LittleAnneMarieLauren” we’re dealing with here, not normal rational people. I’ve come to expect basically no decency from pro-choice people in their dialogue so I have little respect for them unless they demonstrate they deserve respect. I realize my abrasive demeanor probably doesn’t change people’s minds if they’re actually considering an abortion, but I have been on forums before with girls that are exploring their options, and I don’t respond to them like that at all.
I do agree that every single fact is on our side, which is why I come off hostile when really I’m just incredibly frustrated that people refuse to look at the facts. I will try to be nicer though bc I can tell you are equally passionate about this and that you’re right. But I don’t necessarily think we have to change their minds to change the law, although it might help.
Also, “LittleAnneMarieLauren” I don’t believe you.
I don’t know most of what was said in the comments following mine because for my own sanity I have decided not to read them. I can only assume they were insanely triggering. So to address anything that might have been said to me…
I shared a link in my comment for a reason. Before any of you try to tear down my arguments, you should read the research that’s provided from neutral sources on the link that I sent you, because most of them address every single “pro-life” argument in the book. The research includes actual facts about what a fetus is, how abortions are done, statistics, religious views on it, etc. In my scrolling down to the bottom of this I caught a sentence about a dictionary including the word “baby” in its definition of fetus. I noticed whoever commented this didn’t cite the dictionary they used, or its year. I’d also like to remind people that there are hundreds of dictionaries out there and many of them include the term “baby” in the definition of fetus, and many of them don’t. But that doesn’t mean that definition is correct. For example, my personal dictionary defines rape as “the crime by a man of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him without their consent and against their will” as do many other dictionaries. But we know that’s bullshit, because women can rape too. A baby is a human in the developmental stage after birth before being a toddler. That’s just fact. A baby is a sentient, autonomous being. A fetus is not a sentient and autonomous being, a fetus has not been born. A baby has been born. A fetus cannot complete homeostasis on its own, and therefore by something called science IS NOT SEPARATE FROM THE MOTHER.
Like I said, I have avoided intentional reading of these comments, and only saw some things that I caught on my way scrolling down to the comment box. I have made a decision not to come back to this comment thread. It probably wasn’t right to comment in the first place, considering that statistically, most teen mothers (and most of the people on this site are or were teen mothers) are “pro-life.” But since I was once on that side of the fence, I figured I would share my two cents so that other people could maybe have a chance to learn how dangerous what they are trying to do is. But that doesn’t work unless people actually open their minds to what I am saying instead of automatically trying to argue back. Argue against everything I’ve said here all you want, but know it’s probably a waste of your time if you’re trying to direct it at me because I’m not even going to read it. I’m not doing this because I don’t have counter arguments. I’m doing this because I don’t need to spare my sanity by wasting my time talking about highly triggering things to people who probably won’t even listen. This was as much as I could handle for right now. Take care everyone.
Well in cases like mis kayajoy here I guess your right. She is unwilling to respect anyone that feels different than her. It’s quite sad. WE are shity people for judgeing people that do something we feel is wrong yet SHE in all her glory is not a shity person for reacting so rudely to us. However she has proven on other threads that she seems to think her word is law. Not to mention the typical stuborn pro choice way of argueing. Example. Baby cannot with with out the mother that means the baby is not seperate from the mother. Well no shit sherlock they are not seperate until the cord is cut. She was trying to discredit my point about the dna making the babies body a seperate body from the mothers. Which cannot be disproven or discredited because it is fact. She doesn’t seem to like those. I admit that there are somethings I refuse to listen to as well. The cluster of cells thing for one. I mean if you wanna get real technical we are all a cluster of cells. Everything includeing the planet is. However that doesn’t mean we’re not alive. People like her just like to turn a blind eye to things. I nderstand that she went throgh something I cannot imagine and I think that because of that she want abortion to be okay. What she should do is say look I put on my big girl panties and delt with it for the sake of my child so can other women. Deep down im sure she believes as we do. Why else would she have gone through with the pregnancy. If her daughter wasn’t a child why not abort? I can’t begin to imagine how hard it must have been. But in the end she did the right thing so let’s give credit where it is due.
The other thing i’ll point out is ridiculous is “well so and so had an abortion and even though she lives with the guilt she knos she did the right thing” oh really then why does she feel guilty?
Typical pro-choicer, Kayajoy, refuses to even READ the fact based responsess that refute her ridiculous arguments.
Kayajoy, Google “fetus” and the definition I provided is the FIRST result, the one Google provides not a link. It’s not archaic unless you think Google is archaic? Maybe you do. The definition is factually accurate. There is nothing that inherently separates a fetus from a baby except development. The same way an infant and adult are inherently similar.
And no, you have not proven that a human child is only considered a baby after birth. You just randomly assert opinions and claim them as fact when the evidence contradicts your point. A baby is a young child. A “fetus” is a young child, thus logically we can conclude that a fetus is a baby.
I already addressed this point Kayajoy. If you were interested in educating yourself, I wouldn’t have to repeat myself. Is the 21 week old human that survived outside of the mothers womb a baby or not? Was the child a baby only the moment it left the mother’s womb or can you see that that is an irrational viewpoint? In fact, go back and read my earlier explanation about medical limitations/advancements having absolutely no bearing on whether the human in question is alive, which is the foundation of your very weak argument. Unborn humans deserve basic human rights protections. Additionally are you saying that a person who is on life support and cannot survive on their own is not really a human or alive? Pro-choice logic at its finest.
What we are trying to do is “dangerous” but slaughtering 50 million unborn human children is humane? You have a skewed sense of reality.
I am 100% sure you won’t come back because your arguments are too weak to defend.
Lisa, I agree with everything you said in your last comment(s) and I really DID tone this comment down if you can believe that. :)
Well like I said she doesn’t like facts. Nearly everyone else on here has at least attempted to be respectful. She’s hopless. But I could tell you tried. Planed parenthood propaganda has portrayed us as crazy bible thumpers that just want to control everyone. Which is funny to me because im not christian. It is important to change that with calm conversations. But I understand the anger with someone like this.
Three things a person should never discuss: Politics, Religion, and Abortion views!
Point well taken lol. Those thing do end up rather circular.
This is why I hate when Heather posts controversial topics because it brings out the biggest a-holes and keyboard warriors.
lisa you are never respectful on this board. you are a very judgmental person, there is a difference between opinion and facts. SCIENCE is fact. the way you jump to conclusions about people and judge them makes me feel very sorry for your child. “typical stubborn pro choice way of argueing” seriously? grow up, you’re an adult acting like a child. it is not right to lump everyone into a category. the way you belittle and demean others who disagree with you is wrong.
people that have abortions need the therapy afterwards because of assholes like everyone here judging them for their right to choose. every pregnancy should be wanted. the fact is, abortion will never become illegal again, so your arguments are invalid.
Like you, cromeg.
be_wonderful, ironic that you’re being judgmental, demeaning, and belittling to Lisa, also throw in condescending and insulting for good measure.
And just for clarification, they need therapy because they killed their child, not because of us. Get a grip. And it’s assholes like you that continue to perpetuate the mass genocide of unborn babies…but go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back.
You have no idea what will happen in the future. Have a seat.
There is no right or wrong answer in abortion. Pro-choice. Pro-life. Just follow your views. I have the same view on gay marriage. If you don’t like gay marriage, marry someone of the opposite gender. But don’t ruin that choice for others. It doesn’t affect you. If you don’t like abortion, don’t get one. Don’t talk to people you know who decide that route (way to be an unsupportive friend/family member). Let people who don’t want to rearrange their lives, who have goals they want to meet, be able to do that. We all make mistakes. We all pay for them in different ways. No one gets an abortion because they want to kill an unborn baby. They get one because it’s the best choice for them. Because they cannot go through pregnancy and/or give birth for a reason. I am sure teen moms don’t like be judged as being sluts or whores because they had a baby… people who decide abortion don’t want to to be judged as murderers just the same. So let’s just be respectful of others’ decisions.
“No one gets an abortion because they want to kill an unborn baby.” I sincerely hope you’re joking. Then what, may I ask, is the point of an abortion? What mother walks into an abortion clinic and thinks, “Even though I’m here to have my baby’s brains sucked out and my uterus scraped, I’m not here to kill my child!” I can’t even imagine how densely thick-headed you must be to actually use that logic as a base for your already weak argument.
If they don’t want to be judged as murderers, tough titties, because they are murderers; their decision is wrong and they should be held accountable. Heaven forbid I’m being an “unsupportive friend/family member” because I don’t support their decision, I would be as equally unsupportive had they gone out and robbed a bank or something, too.
Also, a little ironic that your little excuse of “we all make mistakes” shows the fact that you too know abortion is a mistake.
By mistake, I mean unprotected sex or being careless one night…whatever leads to unwanted pregnancy. I don’t think my friend is a murderer for getting an abortion. She didn’t go to kill her child. She went because the risk that things could get dangerous, and she knew she was not ready for a baby, would be doing it alone, and in her situation wasn’t best to even go through pregnancy. But as I said, if any excuse was good enough for someone pro-life, they would be pro-choice, so I expect you to think “well she is still a murder, not good enough”. I don’t care. She doesn’t care. I mean why should we? We don’t know you. You don’t even know us.
Be wonderful you obviously have not read the many time i’ve stated that everyone has the right to their own opinion and that I don’t feel that everyone who gets an abortion is a murderer. Pay attention my dear. Oh and I just love how you think tht the way I react to people online and the way I am with my kid are the same. No one else has stooped so low as to bring anyones kids into this conversation. You are pathetic.
Amberbear. You I like. I don’t like the way you think but you’re not an asshole or an idiot. I thank you. However the difference betweeen abortion and gay marriage is that gay marriage has no effect on anyone but the people getting married. Abortion is effecting the child and in a non rape scenario the father of the child. As far as being supportive. Well if you had a friend start abuseing their child or doing drugs or anything else you didn’t think was right would you be supportive? I hope not. They are doing something we feel is wrong. Now I don’t think it’s right to shame or ridicule them. As you said if we can’t be nice we should just stop talking to them. And what I think you meant by no one gets an abortion to kill a child is that women don’t do it with malicious intent. Which is very true. Which is why I don’t feel they are murderers. However just because it is not murder doesn’t mean it isn’t killing. You are also very right that an excuse will never be good enough for us. I myself define an excuse as an invalid reason. If a woman has a vaid reason, for me that’s means medical, I will say she did what she felt she had to. As far as your friend. I’m sure she wasn’t ready for a baby. But she had another option. Many pro choicers seem to want everyone to believe that if you make an adoption plan your child wil be in a foster home or get abandoned or something. That is not true. Private adoptions are wonderful things. The parents pick the family the child goes to and can decide if they want a closed, semi open or open adoption. Although I guess I shouldn’t say pro choicers don’t want you to believe that. It’s the people who are truely pro abortion.
^thank you and even if they were illegal guess what people they will never stop! So this argument is pointless, stopping safe abortion will just bring back ally abortion back..
as for lisa PDFTT
i was talking to be wonderful but guess not fast enough
I never said one a-hole remark, nor insulted anyone’s intelligence. I simply stated my opinion peacefully without name calling or being immature.
Thanks though Laura for proving my point!!
And for the record, I’m pro-life in regards to myself. I’m jappily married. I want to have babies and have a family. I recently had a baby two months ago and I couldn’t be overjoyed with the fact that I am a mother because it is what I’ve always wanted. If we were to have unprotected sex and end up pregnant again, I’d be overjoyed. I could never see myself getting an abortion because it is my choice, because I do not want one for me.
However when it comes to other people and their life, I am pro-choice. Because it’s not my views that should dictate how they live. If they want to go through with it, then so be it. That’s them, not me. You can argue this all you want, then so be it. Because this is a topic that will never be seen eye to eye on, no matter what reasons behind it you have.
and that was supposed to say happily** not jappily. Haha
I honestly feel a little bad for you pro-lifers. You have so much emotion invested into a cause which will never be stopped. People get abortions all day everyday. You will never stop that. Why not come to that realization and except it? You can put your effort into something that can help children who are already here. How many of you have foster children or have adopted? Maybe that’s a place to start. You are all for making women have babies they don’t want, so why don’t you put your money where your mouth is? Every day almost 16,000 children die from hunger. Yet you want the “genocide” of unborn to stop. It’s beyond logic.
Aww congrats cromeg. It only gets better. You miss how they used to be love how they are and can’t wait to see who they’ll be. And lauren wasn’t talking to you about the insulting thing. She was talking to be wonderful.
And hayzii what you don’t understand is that to us as soon as a woman gets pregnant they baby is already here. As far as adopting. I myself couldn’t do it. I wouldn’t be able to feel the same way about a child I did not crate as I do about the ones I did. And my husband and I have frequently talked about fostering. I just don’t know how I would handle it if I took in a child from a bad situation then had to send them back. A lot of foster parents i’ve talked to go through that. Emotionally I just don’t know. Maybe someday. And I personaly don’t fight to have abortions outlawed entirely. I’d like them to be but as you said it is not going to happen. I think we can get them outlawed past the first trimester though. That’s when it gets really cruel because the nerve ending develop. I also think we can make it so a woman can only have one. Maybe 2 depending on the why. Mostly I focus on getting rid of them after 12 weeks. It’s just hard because women have been convinced. That having no limit on abortion is empowering to them. My state recently baned them after 20 weeks and there was an uproar. I couldn’t believe it. I mean no logical rational person can claim that at 20 weeks that is not a living human baby yet you tell women they can’t have them riped apart or cooked in saline while they feel every bit just as much as you and I would and you’re just trying to hold them down.
And if lauren or annemarie red the part about feeling bad for us I don’t think she meant it in a mean way. Just that is is emotionaly difficult for us to believe they way we do. Which it is.
That is how I meant it Lisa. I have the same type of emotion invested into animal rights. But I can do things to help animals so it helps with the pain of knowing animals are suffering. I personally don’t have much emotion invested in the abortion issue, because I don’t need to. Late term abortion is a gray area for me though. If the pregnant woman chooses to have an abortion I think it should be done before the pregnancy is viable and the fetus is capable of surviving outside the mother’s womb. With great power comes great responsibility.
I’m into animal rights to. Just not quite as much. I did chuck a hot iron at a guys head once for talking about how he wanted to get dog fight together lol. And that’s my thing to. If you’re gunna do it do it fast. If it takes you that long to decide you really shouldn’t do it anyway. I also want something to be done about the fathers having no say in it. That’s tricky though cause so many women will just say oh he’s not the dad. I also think there should be some consequence for anyone who tries to pressure a girl into it. I had a lot of scares when I was younger cause my periods are flakey assholes and everytime my on and off boyfriend would say well if you don’t get an abortion i’ll just hire someone to beat your ass til you lose the baby. He was so cruel and I don’t think someone should get away with that.
Amberbear, Some people think there is a right and a wrong answer to abortion. Gay marriage and abortion are not the same thing. Abortion kills a child. Gay marriage does not kill anyone, that’s why the same logic cannot apply. You know what else doesn’t affect me? Child abuse, animal abuse, rape, murder, theft….should all of those be legal too because they haven’t directly affected my life?
It may be the “best choice for them,” but it’s not the best choice for the baby.
cromeg, congrats on your new baby!
Hayzii, yes it is hard to be pro-life. I really don’t know why you and everyone else seems to think that the laws in America can never be changed, but it’s a little naive. The Supreme Court could overturn abortion, especially when the evidence indicates that the person in question is in fact a human. There is also a possibility that abortion could be made illega, and the world would be a better place for it.
I would like to preface the comment I’m about to make by saying that I am also extremely passionate about animal rights…but with your logic, why do you care? There’s nothing you can do about it. You can’t MAKE people stop abusing, and there are children being abused. Shouldn’t you put your time and effort into helping those children instead of animals?
I still haven’t read things that were posted after my final comment (and I still won’t – same reasons as before but feel free to twist that all you want as I’m sure you will) but I came back here to share something I came across on a blog I follow earlier today that applied to this topic. I figured I’d come back just to leave it here for people to read because it’s very relevant to the “pro-life” argument.
Rather than waste money [or time] trying to ban abortion, why not…
-Adopt a child.
-Fund contraception.
-Support free healthcare.
-Donate to charities that work to eradicate childhood diseases.
-Donate to Amnesty International, so they can get innocent people off Death Row.
-Donate your time to working with the hungry/homeless.
-Knit blankets for wanted preemie babies.
-Support people who miscarry. They might actually need it.
-Fight domestic abuse with all your might.
-[Added] Fight to end rape.
-Search for and work with any organizations that support troubled children.
It was taken from http://ngb-prochoice.deviantart.com/ under the “arguments and methods” section, and there are another bunch of links with neutral research and facts regarding abortion attached to it.
More things to consider.
There are a lot of things that *could* happen. It is reasonable to say it won’t. I don’t understand how evidence showing a fetus is human will change anything. You can use any language you like – fetus, baby, small adult, developing infant, embryo, fertilized egg… doesn’t make a difference.
I would like you to explain why you think the world would be a better place if abortion was outlawed. In my opinion, women would die and be injured. Unwanted babies would be born to women too selfish to give it up for adoption. The already overloaded foster care system would be further burdened. More babies would be born addicted to drugs and with severe abnormalities with no chance at a normal life. There would be less resources for those that need it. Higher welfare use… I could go on and on. I would like to hear your side.
As far as animal rights. How do you come to the conclusion that I can’t do anything to help animals? I volunteer at my local shelter among many other things. I help animals daily. I love the quote – “Saving just one dog won’t change the world, but it will surely change the world of that one dog.”
I think thats the big thing that I can’t wrap my mind around from the pro choice side. Just becasue it doesn’t have a direct imapct on my day to day life doesn’t mean it’s okay. Theres a number of things taht don’t impact me but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t care about them either. Then the “don’t like abortion don’t have one” mindset. It’s not like a gay marriage as so many people compare it to.
We were all posting at the same time so I didn’t see the 2 comments above my last one.
Kayajoy-Just becasue there are other owrthwhile things to do doesn’t make what we do any less worthwhile. You’re a jerk with no respect for anyone elses opinion. Oh and every working american already does fund birth control as well as abortion because it’s covered under government insurance.
Hayzii- I want to thank you as well as amberbear for not being disrespectful a holes. Maybe other people will see that it’s not so hard to be mature. Now, I personally have no sympathy for a woman who has some back alley abortion. Anyone that does something so stupid is kind of asking for bad things to happen. I don’t think they deserve to die or any of the horribel things I’m to squeemish to read about but they’re doing it to themselves. Is it sad yes but no sadder than a drug addict dying or someone that gets a scrather tat getting an infection and an amputation. Don’t be dumb. (not you the dumb people doing dumb things)
As for all the rest, while you have a fair point I don’t feel the awnser is abortion I feel the awnser is education and court order sterilization. There are some people that should not by any means be having children yet they keep getting pregnant and either getting an abortion or getting the kids taken away. Instead of aborting their children wouldn’t it be better to stop them from making the children? Even when women have the baby and give the baby up for adoption. I’ve read about people with 3+ chil;dren with adoptive familes. All I can think is why in the hell are they still allowed to reproduce. When you give more than one kid up you’re not being selfless you are being selfless and stupid. I’d liek to know how many kids in the foster system come from the same mother. or father. A year or so I read about a guy who got arrested for not paying child support for his THIRTY kids. and he was only like 25. I kept screaming CHOP HIS BALLS OFF in my mind.
and while you can save individual animals you cannot stop people from abusing them. The only behavior any of us can control is our own. I lvoe that quote but it applies to abortion to. Saving one child probably won’t change the world but it will change their world.
Sadly, the back alley abortions is a reality if abortion was outlawed. Like I said, we all make mistakes, and that one teen girl who was careless may have a family that will beat her to death if they found out she was pregnant. If abortions became illegal, girls like her would be desperate enough to get them done illegally. Not everyone comes from a supportive family and some come from down right dangerous families. If my friend had had her baby, seeing how crazy the baby daddy is, it could have been dangerous for her, her family, the foster care facility, or the family who would adopt it. Sadly, because of the situation (which I am not going to get into) there was nothing police could do until it was possibly too late. That on top of her not being ready I don’t blame her at all. Not everything is bunnies and rainbows in life.
Even though I am pro-choice, I do feel that if you get one abortion, you should learn your lesson. I hope my friend is more careful now. I’d hate to hear she gets another one. That’s when I think it’s crossing the line. Yes, sex makes babies, but people are going to have without the intention of making a baby. Anyone who became a teen mom understands that. I think we should be careful. Once that invincible mindset mentality is gone with the revelation of the first pregnancy and abortion, I hope the woman realizes the consequence of sex if she is more careful and starts taking the necessary precautions. But some people despite using 2 forms of protection somehow get pregnant. Perhaps the pills were bad, the condom broke but they didn’t think anything of the condom because she takes her pills religiously. But she didn’t know they were bad. Why should she have to pay for the company’s mistake?
Abortion is a lose-lose situation. Either the woman loses and has to rearrange her life (or at go through 9 months of pregnancy which can really affect a woman mentally and of course physically), go through adoption and have that in her life forever (if it’s open), or the unborn child loses. But the reality is the unborn child doesn’t have much to lose except its life.
I think difference between murder, rape, child abuse, animal abuse, etc and pro-choicers thinking that is wrong is because that COULD affect us. The murderer could target me. The rapist could target me. That could be my child being abused. That could my animal getting abused. But the person who chooses abortion, that unborn baby can never be mine. You cannot take a developing child out of woman and put it into someone who is willing to carry it and give birth. I cannot put my unborn child into another woman and her abort it. I will never have a connection to that unborn child. Never can.
Lisa, no offence but you have to have realistic alternatives. Court ordered sterilization will never happen. Trust me I wish some people could be sterilized (Jenelle comes to mind..). But who would decide? A bunch of male judges? What would the criteria for sterilization be? Would the person have to have had a child and abused it for the issue to even come up? In that case it’s too late for that child.
In my opinion abortion is definitely not ideal, no little girl dreams of having an abortion someday and it is usually pretty traumatizing. It’s an imperfect solution in a imperfect world. I wish there was a better answer but there just isn’t, yet.
Amberbear. Situations like that are the reason I don’t think they are all murderers. and honestly thats a grey area for me. She was in a situation where you could abort and get it over with or she could have put more than just the childs life and safety in jepordy. (thats not spelled right is it?? brain fart) Honestly though how many abortions come from situations like that? The vast majority are not due to being screwed no matter what you do, or being raped or a medical reason. They come from people that just don’t want the kid. Not that they can’t. They just don’t want to.
I like that you pointed out that so many young girls have an invincible mindset. I always tell people I was using the “it won’t happen to be” birth control method. Wrap it up boys don’t pull out.
I agree that everyone is losing with abortion but I don’t see how going through with the pregnancy is losing. 999 times out of 1000 motherhood is rewarding. Even if you make an adoption plan. The one time being a girl like your friend where her child and everyone around her ends up hurt or dead or kidnapped or whatever.
I myself don’t see the difference. I could never be put in a dog fight but I still want to stop those. While I have been an abused child I enver will be again and I still want to stop that. I feel a connection with these children in the same way I imagine hayzii has a connection with the animals she saves. They cannot ask for help and cannot save themelves. It’s giving a voice to the voiceless.
hayzii. Why won’t it ever happen?? All kind of things happen everyday with our laws so why not that? Of course a person couldn’t be sterilized for no reason but even without it children are being abused. We can never put a stop to it entirely. All we can do is save the ones who have suffered from abuse and do whatever we can to prevent more children from being born. There are plenty of female judges as well and it would be decided the same why anything of this sort is. Who decides which parents get their rights terminated? If someone has demonstrated they cannot be a fit parent they should not be allowed to have more children. I know in Michigan there is some type of law saying a woman can’t have more kids. A friend of mines sister had a court order not to reproduce again. weeeell now she’s pregnant and the child will be taken from her as soon as he or she is born. BUt all the judge can do is say don’t do it again and take the baby if they do.
Story Time.
My first year of college I took a class on relationships. One topic was on how pregnancy affects relationships and the different choices a woman has when she finds out. The professor said we would have a debate on abortion the next class. It’s an optional class hour. Upon arriving, she told pro-choice to sit on one side, pro-life on the other side of the room. She said there is no grey area for abortion (no sitting in the middle). And when you think about it, she is right. If you find there is any reason that you can understand and be OK with abortion, you are pro-choice. There is no way to be in the middle. Pro-Life means you believe that from conception a baby is person entitled to rights. No matter the reason, they should all be born. Just as people think whether a baby is created with love or created out of rape, they shouldn’t be punished. But the moment you think the woman who may die in birth, or the woman whose baby will not survive upon cutting the cord shouldn’t have to carry the baby any longer, or someone like my friend has good enough reason to have an abortion, you become pro-choice. I guess you can say you are pro-life with exceptions. But those same exceptions are usually what pro-choice people see as acceptable reasons for abortions. It’s due to the different views that one person calls them exceptions and the other says they are acceptable reasons. Pro-life basically isn’t about stopping abortion but stop the killing of another life right? But what about the mother’s life? Or other peoples’ life? Yes, those situations are rare, but they still exist and stopping the killing of another life would be putting those peoples’ lives in danger if we ban abortions.
I don’t like people think I am pro-killing babies. I am pro-choice… giving woman a choice. I think it’s great when a woman chooses to be a mom or chooses adoption. But I don’t judge them if they choose abortion. I personally only know one person, my friend, who has chosen that. I think she had a good reason. My other friends have kept their babies, including my teenage cousin. But if my cousin had chosen abortion because her unstable life and she wants to go to college and has big dreams…. I wouldn’t have blamed her, but I would expect her to be more careful in the future. If my friend who got pregnant college decided abortion so she could finish her degree, I wouldn’t have blamed her. They are good reasons in my eye.
Although we should be held responsible for our mistakes (carelessness), why not a second chance? If a woman chooses to have the baby with proper finances or stability, it could be the baby who pays in the end, and let’s face it. Watching 16&Pregnant we see many teens keep their babies with no stability or plans. I like to think that choosing abortion is just as hard as adoption. I couldn’t imagine giving my baby up when you carry it for 9 months and feel it kick.. even if it is the best choice. I don’t think either choice is easier than the other, especially after seeing my friend who choose abortion. They both have different consequences the woman must face.
1-I would NOT have gone to that class. I rarely talk about this in person because I have seen so much violence fomr both side. 2- I disagree with your teacher. I am pro life. I veiw the exceptions kind of like pulling the plug on someone without any chance of recovery. Those people are still alive and still worthy of life but they will never get it. I think there are very few and very rare exceptions to every rule (in this case a personal moral rule) and abortion is no different. I think if someone has an abortion becasue it’s not the right time or they wouldn’t be able to finish their degree or they don’t want to go throguh the pain of an adoption they are selfish. They are focused more on themselves than the child that they created. No matter what a person does when a penis goes inside of a vagina they take the risk of pregnancy. Just like you said you could be on the pill and use a condom but the condom could break and the pills could be mis dyed (a know a girl who get pregnant exactly like that). Yes, the company made a faulty product but no one made those 2 people have sex. They made the choice, they should deal with the result. You are right that being pro life is about protecting human life, thats why I don’t like the term “anti choice”. I do believe that ANY abortion is taking a human life but sometimes sacrifices need to be made. I said before that even I would consider it myself if my doctor told me if you continue this pregnancy you will both probably die. Then I would ahve to make the choice to sacrifice one child or to risk both our lives and leave my husband and daughter alone. End one life or rip apart many?? I can’t say what I would do in taht situation but I would be forced to think about it. The same with your friend. If the father anf family truely were as dangerous as you say there is no telling who they would have hurt. Or what they would have done. However her child still paid her her mistakes. Of course it wasn’t her intention and I’m sure she’s not a bad person but a heart stoped beating because of what she did. I tihnk she made the choice that would hurt less people but it wasn’t a victimless situatiion (not that she is a villian).
When does a woman deserve that choice?? When you say a woman that has sex of her own free will and isn’t in a life or death situation it’s pretty much saying that she shouldn’t be held responsible for her actions. I’m sure an abortion is easier for the woman at first but that woman has a responsibility to the child she created above herself. No child asked to be created. They shouldn’t be killed because their parents had sex before they could handle a baby. If the parents decide they want to finish college or just don’t want to be parents they should find someone who does want to be a parent. I don’t understand where this mentality about adoption comes from. I live near an adoption agency and sometimes I take girls that are on thte fence there adn the workers show us the thousands of profiles of couples waiting for a child. Believe me these kids won’t get stuck in a foster home or something like that. Well at least theres not more risk of it with adoption than any parent.
That’s fine, Lisa if you want to be pro-life and have your beliefs. But be respectful of others who do not share the same beliefs. Your opinions and beliefs do not dictate my life or anyone else’s. It is not law. It is not fact. The world doesn’t revolve around Lisa’s opinions, values, and beliefs. Nor around mine own. Like I said, I think it’s great when people choose to parent or adoption, even if it is because a pro-life person helped them to decide that. But I don’t feel it is right to judge a person who chooses abortion. You don’t know their story. And even if you did, you would still think they should have had the baby. So it doesn’t matter.
When it comes to laws, I think we should take into mind basic morals and values. For instance, murder is wrong, we all know it (unless it is to save your own life from a threat). Stealing is wrong. Abuse is wrong. But saying the word God in the pledge? If you don’t like it, skip it. Saying a prayer at school before lunch? Don’t like it, don’t participate. Don’t like gay marriage? Marry someone of the opposite sex. Don’t like abortions? Don’t get one. Not everyone believes early in pregnancy that baby has a life. It has heartbeat but does it have a life? Does it have a soul? Does it have memories and experiences that are shaping its personality? We will never know. That is why the question of if the baby actually has a life is questionable and only a matter of opinion. It’s like taking a person off of life support. Do they really still have soul or life? We can’t say.
You are right that there are no facts about personhood. No one can prove when a child has a soul. Or if anyone does for that matter. The whole point of this conversation with you has become to open your mind to the kind of people who are pro life. So many are assholes. They say things like all women who get abortions are murderers or that they hope women see the face of the baby or that they hear the chidl screaming for them as many women do. I want to change that stereotype. So while yes we have been talking about why we feel the way we feel I haven’t been trying to change your mind. I simply want you and everyone to see that we’re not all crazy over here.
AS far as laws. Yes some things are black and white. Murder is wrong (I don’t think it’s murder to kill in self defence) Theft is wrong and Abuse is wrong. Hands downa nd no logical persona can say otherwise. However things like religion in schools or abportion are not. In the mind of one person they might be. Some people think that religion should be forced into public schools while I think those people should be shot. Hell sadly guns being right or wrong safe or unsafe isn’t even obvious to some people. With abortion, to some people is it about the childs physical development but it seems that to you it’s more about the mental development. Whats going on in their head? We know there is brain activity but that doesn’t mean they are having true thoughts. But then how do we know whats going on in a newborns head? All in all yo uand I agree on this aspect. There is no proof and never will be. when a person becomes a person is all a matter of individual opinion.
Kayajoy, just shut up. Seriously. If you can’t bring yourself to read the responses to your ignorance, don’t comment.
Hayzii, It is reasonable to say that it will happen if someone can adequately litigate that unborn babies are human and alive because that qualifies them for basic human rights protections. There’s a strong legal case to be made for protecting human rights if a litigator can make a strong enough case that the child in the womb is in fact a child, human, baby, etc. and is alive. And if you believe that what I’m saying is true (child, baby, fetus, whatever you choose to call it is in fact alive), then how can you possibly not agree that abortion is killing/murder? If the person is alive, then abortion is killing by definition. This is indisputable. So if we are able to prove that the child is alive, then it follows that abortion will necessarily be made illegal based on the fact that we don’t allow people to kill other people legally in this country (with the exception of self defense). I think it would help to change the collective mentality of “let people do whatever they want even if it results in the death of millions of children” but it’s not necessary to enact change in the laws. Facts and evidence need to be gathered and presented in a convincing way to the courts, and when that happens, abortion will be overturned. Logically, it must be. There is no way to admit that the child in the womb is alive and NOT afford it basic human rights. Unless we just drop the pretense of being a civilized and humane nation altogether, abortion must be overturned.
I think we would be in a better place if abortion was outlawed because it will happen about 95% less than it happens now. Yes there will be people who still get abortions, but the number will be so miniscule that it will be easier to deal with on a small scale. With my mindset, how can you not think that I would conclude that the world would be a better place without it? I think it’s murdering a human by a parent. I think the world would be a better place if there was less killing of tiny humans. This is logical, and no amount of guilt trip about what (for lack of a better word) stupid women choose to do with their own lives (I’m referencing the implication that women will have back alley abortions here) will make it any less of a victory for mankind when it’s overturned. The child has no CHOICE to live or die. The mother has a choice to A. use 2 forms of protection OR B. not to have sex. She made her choice in my mind before she ever got pregnant. Since pregnancy is 100% preventable, there is no need for abortion to be legal. We can discuss how natural and necessary sex is to humankind, but it isn’t and that’s no excuse. People can live without it. Further, people can raise children if they want to. We all make sacrifices and have to deal with the results of our actions.
Lastly, you cannot stop animal abuse on a large scale. A pro-life person could have as much of an effect on helping women choose life as you can of stopping animal abuse. I don’t agree with your logic either, but I think even you can see that it’s absurd to tell people they have to support a different cause because it’s one YOU think is more justifiable. You clearly love animals and care about them enough to help. Why should I belittle you for caring about them and insist you spend your time helping children instead when there are plenty of children that need help? This is what you’re doing to us. That’s the point of making that comparison. Some people feel passionate about things and care about them. I don’t look at abortion as a lost cause the same way you don’t look at stopping animal abuse as a lost cause.
Amberbear, I am stunned by this comment. “But the reality is the unborn child doesn’t have much to lose except its life.” The child has EVERYTHING to lose. They don’t get to take their first breath, experience love, grow, learn, ANYTHING. EVERYTHING is being taken from that child.
On the difference between murder, rape, child abuse, animal abuse, etc. and abortion, I’m glad you’re honest. That’s EXACTLY the reason that abortion is still legal. It cannot affect the people that make the laws. If you or your loved ones were on the chopping block for an abortion (I understand that is physiologically impossible, just making a point), you would oppose it I’m sure. And that is part of the problem. The unborn child has no voice and no choice. If the child could communicate with the mother, what do you think he/she would choose?
Also, as Lisa pointed out, you won’t ever be the product of child abuse or animal abuse, so how is that different than abortion? The only way animal abuse or child abuse could affect you would be mentally because you’re not a child or an animal.
But does the unborn child realize that they are going to miss out on love and growing and learning and everything? Sadly, we don’t know. That’s where I go back to we don’t know if the baby is a person with life. A soul. It has a heart and a brain… but has its life has really begun? I think that is where pro-life and pro-choice people disagree. Where life really begins. If you asked that unborn child if they want to live, it won’t respond. Even if it could, at that point would it understand what you are talking about? I know the same could be said about an infant, but the infant has already come into the world, living on its own (still dependent, but not to the a point where it is attached to someone), and learning. It’s a person with a life now. But we can’t say for sure about an unborn baby. That is where people differ.
“Now, I personally have no sympathy for a woman who has some back alley abortion. Anyone that does something so stupid is kind of asking for bad things to happen.”
erm, lisa, you do realize that not everyone can afford an abortion? if she can’t afford an abortion and by your logic, should have the baby, how the hell do you think she’s going to be able to afford medical expenses that come along with being pregnant and having/raising that baby? also, court ordered sterilization will never happen here, that is inhumane and a violation of all these “human rights.”
making abortion illegal is not going to put an end to abortions, period. it is just going to make it more dangerous for those who need them. roe vs. wade is likely never going to be overturned, it has been almost 40 years now.
lauren, i appreciate your ability to tell others to shut up when pointing out logical arguments, very mature of you.
There is no way to admit that the child in the womb is alive and NOT afford it basic human rights.
basic human rights.. so that would be what exactly? a bunch of cells cannot live outside of the womb, so i’m not understanding how they would have human rights.
I think we would be in a better place if abortion was outlawed because it will happen about 95% less than it happens now. Yes there will be people who still get abortions, but the number will be so miniscule that it will be easier to deal with on a small scale.
and you know this how? this is not based upon facts. how is women dying because they do not want to be pregnant something that’s easy to deal with?
The mother has a choice to A. use 2 forms of protection OR B. not to have sex.
let’s be serious here, people are never going to just not have sex. what if she were raped? what if she has an allergy to latex? what if she can’t take hormonal BC? or hey- what if she uses condoms AND BC and still ends up pregnant? things happen. the only way pregnancy is 100% preventable is abstinence, which sorry to say, no one will adhere to if abortion is outlawed.
Further, people can raise children if they want to.
that is EXACTLY my point- every pregnancy should be WANTED. if you force a woman to follow through with a pregnancy that she doesn’t want or maybe even can’t carry to term, that is not doing that potential child or mother any favors.
you are not pro life, you are just pro the fetus’ life, not the woman’s. you are anti choice because you are denying the woman the right to choose if she wants that pregnancy.
Amberbear, the child, whether it realizes it or not, is incapable of living due to the abortion. Why does it matter if the child actually realizes at that point of development that they are not going to be able to live? That doesn’t matter at all. I would say that an infant wouldn’t realize that it would be missing life if it was killed, yet it’s still illegal to kill infants. I don’t understand why it matters to you if the child is in the womb or out of the womb. It’s the same thing. Children have survived at 21 weeks development. So really, what’s the difference?
psymja, I told kayajoy to shut up because she’s a self-righteous idiot who continues to post irrelevant points but won’t even READ the comments in response to her. Who else that was actually engaging in a discussion about this topic did I tell to shut up? Kayajoy is posting a speech and refusing to read our very articulate responses to her pathetically weak arguments.
Now to address your other points. Basic human rights would constitute the human rights afforded to every other human in America, the right to life. People like you that call unborn children “a cluster of cells” have so much to learn. You were once a clump of cells. In fact, you still ARE a clump of cells. You’re just walking around and talking so you’ve developed a superiority complex as you have developed. Genetically, the unborn child is a human. Heartbeat, growth, development, are all positive indicators of life. Please provide a plausible example of something with a heartbeat that grows and develops that is NOT alive to dispute that point.
What is not based upon fact? You apparently think the majority of women in this country are complete morons. I don’t. I think that if abortion was illegal, it would be much less common because people would not want to sacrifice their own lives and potential future health just to get an abortion. Furthermore, how do you know that there would be a lot of back alley abortions? That is pure speculation, not based in fact, just your opinion.
I love how you pro-choicers come up with scenarios that could happen in less than 1% of all abortion cases to support your argument that ALL abortion should be legalized. No. If she has an aversion to latex, use lamb skin. If she can’t take oral BC, try one of the multitude of other birth control options. If her body rejects birth control altogether, she should get her tubes tied (this can be reversed). You are conditioned to believe that people should not take responsibility for their actions and that people HAVE to have sex to live. They don’t. And just because people are irresponsible and choose to have sex with people they have no intention of having a child with AND don’t properly protect themselves is no excuse to allow legalized killing to continue in this country.
No, your point is that women should be able to kill their offspring if they are irresponsible enough to bring a child into the world that was not planned. Yes, every pregnancy SHOULD be wanted, but that’s about as unrealistic as me stating that if abortion was outlawed, no one else in the world would ever get another abortion. It’s not going to happen, and abortion is not the answer to unwanted pregnancy because it KILLS a defenseless, innocent human being. The answer to unwanted pregnancies is prevention. Period. Grasp this.
You are not pro-choice. You are pro-abortion. You’re only pro-choice in the case of the mother, but not the defenseless child that has no choice.
I am pro-life and pro-baby. I am for the lives of unborn human beings. You can get all self righteous about it and try to cloak it in your derogatory synonyms, but the fact is that it all amounts to the same thing. I’m also pro-woman. I’m pro women having the joy of raising their children. Women are being robbed of the joys of motherhood because the pro-choice coalition coerces them into believing that their lives will be better without the child they created. They convince them they can’t parent and that they don’t need to take on the responsibility of a baby, and then scream at pro-life people how anti-woman they are. I mean really…do you hear yourself make these statements and think…wow I’m telling another woman and mother that she’s anti-woman…that sounds pretty stupid. No. You think you’re right. Because I don’t support mothers killing their children in the womb I somehow want women to suffer generally (these are your thought processes, and this is the reason I have 0 respect for people like you). People like you refuse to look at the facts, and then you try to belittle and demean everyone to believing your garbage. You’re wrong, and that’s a fact.
One more thing, children are not a punishment. That mindset is damaging, and pro-choice people always use this line of attack. The woman is being “punished” as if she’s under duress to have the child. Most people that have a child are not prepared for it one way or another. That doesn’t mean that the child itself is a punishment to the parent. It’s the result of an action…and that action is something everyone is well aware may cause that result. It may be a challenge to have a child for some women given their situation, but that does not make it a punishment. I really dislike the way pro-choicers de-value motherhood and parenting.
“There are nearly 126,000 abortions per day and almost 46 million per year throughout the world. Out of these, 78% are in developing nations while 22% in developed ones. 26 million abortions are legal while the remnant 20 million take place in nations where it is prohibited by law.”
Even if we made abortions illegal, what about other countries? Or is it only American babies that are important? And as these statistics show, even when it is illegal, women still get them. This argument is never going to end. It’s pretty much a waste energy for both sides to continue on. If you can convince one friend to choose another path, great. But abortion is an imperfect choice in an imperfect world and it will never be stopped. But good news for pro-lifers, abortion stats in the US are declining. Even as a pro-choicer, that makes me happy.
The reality is though arguing against abortion to the world is a waste of time. You can convince a friend, but you will never convince the world. Even when it’s illegal, it still occurs, except at a cost to the woman. And some people may say they deserve that but I think that is low. You don’t like killing babies but ok with women dying? They may not be making the smartest choice but that doesn’t mean they deserve to die. So since it is going to happen no matter what, why not keep it legal and safe?
Okay. First. psymja if you must, say fetus. However saying “clump of cells” is WRONG. The child has organs and human form and all kinds of fun stuff. LOOK IT UP. I’m not trying to be mean here but that is just brainwashing from all this “women rights” bull shit. As Lauren so rightly said you have been convinved that if someone is against abortion they are against women. I am no more anti choice than you are anti life. However you seem tot hink that the only choice a woman can possibley have is the last resort when she’s already screwed everything else up. why don’t you support responsible choices. I get that humans are sexual but there are other ways to be sexual with your partner. I myself as a married woman refrained from vaginal intercourse with my husband when we were out of condoms (non latex becuse I AM allergic, they were just as easy to get free as latex ones) and didn’t want to get pregnant then. There is no reason other people can’t get ahold of themselves. Your mindset is “oh people are irresponsible so lets let them get out of their responsibilities because thety didn’t want a consequence” I don’t mean to sound rude but thats the vibe I’m getting. We need to teach responsibility. and for the record court ordered steriliztion is a good solution to dumb people having babies even with abortion legal. Take a crack head with three kids in the foster system. Should she be allowed to have more kids to put into te foster system?? Or should we just force her to ahve an abortion?? You seem to forget that the women in almost every one of these cases PUT HER SELF IN THE SITUATION. By having sex she opened up her body to the possibility of a child. However the child did nothing except be the wrong egg. So yes, I stand with the innocent child instead of the irresponsible mother. adn yes, EVERYONE who gets pregnant before they are ready is irresponsible, including myself.
Amber your point about starting with just one friend can be used for just one country. Og course I would love to save the children in other countries as well but first I need to focus on the one I’m in. The part that saddens me the most is that so many pro choice people say that we should just get over it and deal with it cause it’s the law. Or as you say/ Don’t like them, don’t have them. (not that I get a condecending vibe from you at all) However if it were to be outlawed there would be a huge outrage. About 50 comments ago I mentioned that Michigan recently made them illegal after 20 weeks and there were huge bitchy ass protests. I mean if WE’RE suposded to “just deal with it” why isn’t the other side? If the pro choice side can say “don’t like abortion? don’t have one” why is it wrong for us to say “don’t want kids? Don’t have them”.
Amberbear, Where did you get those stats? Just wondering. I’m not implying they’re incorrect, I just wanted to know which organization is responsible for gathering and accurately representing those numbers.
Of course children in other countries are equally valuable, and ideally, every country in the world would adopt laws that prohibit abortions. My question is of the 20 million abortions that are performed illegally around the world every year, where are they performed and what is the punishment associated with having an abortion in that country? We can compare the situation with murder or child abuse. Just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean people WON’T do it, but having it legal makes absolutely no sense because it is bad for society and harms another human being. A two pronged effort needs to be in place that helps educate women on prevention while also enacting laws with strict penalties for women that violate the law and have an abortion. There also needs to be a shift in the mentality of young women so that they don’t look at abortion as an option anymore. The fact that so many women get an abortion every year is appalling, and it will take more than laws to see that number drop to 5% of what it once was. I agree. But that doesn’t mean just throw in the towel and keep it legal so that 26 million children are aborted every year LEGALLY. If that number was 20 million instead of 46 million, that’s an improvement. And we have to take baby steps to get there. Changing the law on abortion needs to be coupled with strict penalties for violating the law. These penalties are a deterrent, and most people will think twice about doing it if they know the punishment will be severe.
Good to know that the rate is declining. How much has it declined by?
It’s really not a waste of time anymore than it’s a waste of time to fight for any other cause that you believe in. The point is not necessarily to convince the world, although that would be ideal, but to make strides in the right direction. I understand that you feel sympathy for women that are in a situation that makes them feel that they need an abortion, but it’s not a justification to allow it to continue. Life isn’t fair. People get pregnant and deal with it all the time. As I said, pregnancy is not a punishment, and the cost to the woman is slight in most cases compared to the cost of the child. If the woman loses her life, then it is a tragedy of course, but she made the choice to have the abortion illegally. The child never chose to be created by the woman & her partner.
“So since it is going to happen no matter what, why not keep it legal and safe?” Because that perpetuates the notion that it is right and acceptable, and it is not right and not acceptable to kill a defenseless child because the mother made a choice with a result that she did not anticipate. It shouldn’t be legal because killing other people is not legal, and this is a form of killing. And when you say legal and safe…you only mean safe for the woman. There are two people involved in this, not just the woman. While yes I hope all women are safe and protected and don’t have to suffer due to a botched abortion, the cost of legalized abortion is too great to ignore.
Not to mention the tax payers cost. When governement money goes for abortions that’s when it really crosses a line. Well….another line. I know we all pay texes for things we don’t like but with as strong as opinions get about this people should pay for it themselves.
The CDC seems to have some and another group if you google it, Lauren.
You are not pro-choice. You are pro-abortion. You’re only pro-choice in the case of the mother, but not the defenseless child that has no choice.
it has no choice because it cannot LIVE ON ITS OWN. yes, a bunch of cells does not have the same rights or value as a living, breathing, independent, human being. i have more rights than that, yes.
there would be a lot of back alley abortions because people would still get abortions, that is what they did before abortion was legal. that is a fact. look it up. if it were murder, don’t you think that it would be illegal at this point in time?
Women are being robbed of the joys of motherhood because the pro-choice coalition coerces them into believing that their lives will be better without the child they created.
that doesn’t even make any sense. the people who get abortions are provided with counseling so that they know this is the right decision for them, it is their OWN decision. perhaps their life will be better.. if they’re addicted to drugs, living in poverty or on welfare, medically cannot carry a pregnancy to term, or just flat out don’t want kids, their life will be better without them. a pregnancy should be wanted, to deny women that right will cause more children in the foster system, in poverty, etc. so you just care about the baby before it’s born?
stop spewing your disgusting “people like you.” you are generalizing a large group of people and demeaning them because they do not believe the same as you.
People like you refuse to look at the facts, and then you try to belittle and demean everyone to believing your garbage. You’re wrong, and that’s a fact.
i am not wrong, it is an opinion.. opinions aren’t wrong. perhaps you should look up the definition, lisa? i am looking at the facts, you are using your emotions and ignorant beliefs to back yours. fact is, abortions will always happen, and will likely never be outlawed. it is a woman’s choice, whether you like it or not. you have no say in the matter, or in her womb. a fetus is not considered a human and therefore has no rights like you or i do because it cannot live, breathe, do anything outside of the womb, on its own. those are facts. deal with it.
Psymja, “It” is a human being. When you say “cannot” survive on its own, you realize that medical and technological advancements will probably at least within the next few decades allow us to support life completely outside the womb. What will you say then? Also, do you consider a child unable to survive outside of the womb if they are in the womb, if they are past a certain stage of development, etc. What is your barometer for deciding when a person is “able to survive on its own?” There are A LOT of people that can’t live on their own, yet we still classify them as human beings deserving of protections under the law — infants, toddlers, elderly people. Same concept. Failed logic. The unborn child is no more defenseless without a human to support its life than an infant is defenseless without a human to support its life. And no you shouldn’t have more rights. You only have more rights than that because PEOPLE LIKE YOU have legislated that it must be so. Fortunately for you, your mother chose to give birth to you.
You have no idea if there would be a lot of back alley abortions. Times have changed. You can’t extrapolate that there necessarily would be anymore than I necessary can say that abortion would be much less common if it were illegal. Pick your logic and stick with it, but don’t use one logic to justify your beliefs and another to argue against mine. Before abortion was legal, there were significantly fewer abortions performed in this country annually. That is a fact. So if you can logically deduce that there would be “a lot” of back alley abortions, then I can logically deduce that abortion rates would be significantly lower if it was illegal.
Of course it makes sense. I assume you are a mother since you’re here. Do you think being a parent is a punishment? Do you hate your children and look at them as if they ruined your life? In fact, do you know ANYONE that actually HAS A CHILD that feels that way? Cause I sure as hell don’t. My child is the best thing that ever happened to me, and I am MORE successful in life because of him. He didn’t inhibit me from pursuing my dreams. If anything, he gave me the motivation I needed to do what I am supposed to be doing with my life.
“The people who get abortions are provided with counseling.” Really. This happens EVERY SINGLE TIME and you know this for a fact? Also, do you think that people that work at an abortion clinic every day might have a bit of a bias. I’ve heard women say that they went to one of those disgusting counseling centers only to be told exactly what I said to you by one of the “counselors.” ‘It will be too hard on you to raise a baby.’ ‘Your life will be better if you don’t have the child.’ Yet here you are, in all your glory, stating that you empirically know that all women receive unbiased counseling before they get an abortion. That is complete and utter malarkey. I HATE when people say that women who live in poverty should abort their children. What insane idiocy. If the poor person feels like they won’t be able to provide a suitable life (even with government assistance, welfare, food stamps, government housing, etc.) then make an adoption plan. That is a selfless decision. The child doesn’t deserve to suffer because the mother is poor, and it is deplorable that you would even make that comment. Also, I have relatives that adopted three children whose mother was a druggie so I also resent the implication that they don’t deserve to live just because of their parents’ choices. Finally, if they don’t want children, DON’T GET PREGNANT. It’s preventable. No one is denying any rights from any woman by outlawing abortion. People like you have a severely dysfunctional mindset about this. The woman has full rights not to get pregnant. It’s not as if pro-life people favor randomly impregnating unsuspecting women and then forcing them to carry the child to term. Do you see how absurd that sounds? That’s how you talk about it.
LOL. I say PEOPLE LIKE YOU because A. I am trying with all my might to refrain from calling you what I really want to call you and B. I have encountered SO MANY people like you that I feel confident lumping you into a category together. The “you hate women” “it’s a woman’s choice” “it’s her body” “you don’t care about children after they’re born” morons that wouldn’t know a rational thought if it smacked them in the face repeatedly. That is you. It’s not that you don’t believe the same as me either. Not ALL pro-choice people fall into this category. Amberbear has been able to hold a discussion without saying something that is absolutely absurd, so I don’t classify her in this category, but you definitely. Your “you’re not pro-life, you’re anti-choice and anti-woman” tirade sealed the deal.
You are wrong. You think an unborn child is apparently not alive, not human and therefore doesn’t deserve protections under the law. Do you actually think that an unborn child is not human and alive? I’m really asking because that’s completely irrational and forms the basis for why you are factually and logically incorrect about this issue.
Who doesn’t consider an unborn child a human? I mean who honestly has thought this ALL THE WAY through and thinks that a human breeds something sub-human when they reproduce? Seriously you wonder why pro-life people mock your “opinions.” THAT IS ABSURD.
I think my two year old is more intelligent than you are. Deal with it.
I tried, Lisa, but I think I got hostile again. :)
And I am still waiting for you to provide an example of something that is NOT alive that has a heartbeat, grows, develops, and exhibits independent movement, psyjma. Ball is in your court.
I love how the only comments these stories get are the ones that are about abortions.
I just want to say that I find it a little ridiculous for the people who say “don’t have sex if you don’t want to get pregnant” . Obviously that’s how one does get pregnant but it isnt/ nor should it be the only reason why people should do it. Lots of couples have sex without the intentions of getting pregnant(on some form of BC) so if an “accident” were to happen while should they have to be forced to keep their baby. Adoption is an amazing option, but realistically not that many people are that strong to go through that process. In addition a woman who is raped shouldn’t have to deal with the stress of carrying a baby from the result of a rape. I just think its really ridiculous for the pro-lifers to make statements like/similar to the ones Catelynn made. I can totally respect ones choice to be pro-life but to shove their rude opinions and lack of empathy for women who have had abortions is wrong. I by no means think that abortions should be used as a means of contraceptive, but I also think its really unfair for a woman to be forced to care for a child she doesn’t even want (regardless of the circumstances in which she got pregnant).
SHe got hostile first Lauren it’s okay. She does that if she doesn’t feel that the child is indeed a child then she should say fetus instead of “clump of cells” because it is physically NOT a clump of cells and more than you or I are. Although technically we all are so it’s an invalid statement all around.
Megyn. Every single time you have sex you run the risk of pregnancy. I doesn’t matter how mcuh you dislike that fact it’s still true. Therefore if you make the CHOICE to have sex you have made the CHOICE to risk pregnancy and should not be able to run away from the consequences of your CHOICE. What you are claiming is that people should not have to make responsible choices.
Lisa- So a couple who practices safe sex and finds themselves pregnant should have to raise a baby even though they may not want/be ready (or whatever the circumstance may be)? Gay and Lesbian couples can have sex all the time without that option so how come heterosexual couples can’t have sex ? There is a risk of pregnancy regardless of the precautions you take. My 41 year old aunt just terminated a pregnancy because her IUD didn’t work (she has 3 adolescents anddwas not ready to have another child- but since she was having sex with her husband of 20 years she ultimately wanted another child right? Even though she was taking precautions? I can respect your choice to be pro-life but not everything is as black/white as you seem to make it. I agree that there shouldd be a time limit and that a women terminating a pregnancy after the first trimester is ridiculous. I also don’t know what your laws in the states are, but in Ontario OHIP covers abortions. A women can have as many as she wants. Most clinics here won’t do it after 16-20 wks which is still quite late.
Ps- you don’t need to capitalize the words. I can read just find and I definetely didn’t post a comment to start an argument. I can respect your opinion, but not everything is black and white and the only thing that is true about what your saying is that sex creates babies. But unless your hardcore religious, sex isn’t just to procreate.
Just fine* lol.
Megyn… I tried that reasoning with them. And I totally understand what you are saying. And I understand them. Just putting your views starts an argument. Remember if any reason was good enough to them, they would be pro-choice so there is no point. I walked away with my dignity. :) Still pro-choice. I know what abortion entails and I don’t like reading about it. I don’t think it is right or the best choice or should be a form of birth control. But I pro-CHOICE because women should have a choice whether they realize they were careless or for a medical reason. Whatever.
Gay and lesbian couples can have sex without having babies ebcause it take a man and a woman to make a baby. Thats just biology. Thats really a downside to their orientation because the gay couples I know would love children. Thats a whole different set of bull shit laws though. While of course there is nothing wrong with a grown woman having sex with her husband as an adult she understands the risks. Even with mirena. Although to be honest she probably didn’t need to abort the pregnancy. I’ve enver known or heard of a woman to get pregnant on mirena and not lose the baby/ I’m sure it’s happened just rarely. Of course this isn’t a black and white issue. However the cause of pregnancy is. Sprem meets egg. That happens through sex. Birth control can fail, condoms can break. Even women that have their tubes tied can get pregnant. That is very very very rare though. If your aunt is done having kids either her or her husband should get sterilized. I myself don’t want more than 2 kids so after I pop this one out he will be having a vacectomy.
Now I can’t speak for all the states but in Michigan there is no limit on how many and very recently banned them after 20 weeks. State funded insurance covers them and if someone doesn’t have that there are government funded clinics that will do one for free.
and I didn’t mean to come off rude. I used all caps to emphasize that the woman has made a choice already.
okay first i dont like catelynn at all. shes snobby, annoying, full of herself and clearly ignorant. i couldnt read this whole thread. you pro life idiots are all ignorant. who are you to tell a woman what she must do? i agree that abortions, in most cases are selfish. i dont agree with abortion. HOWEVER i believe that women should not be forced to carry a baby when she has been raped. i believe it is their choice. you cannot really sit here and say “oh shame on you what did the baby do?” no. what did the mother ever do to deserve that? she has to face 9 months remembering what she went though then deal with that baby being alive and what if the kid tries to find her?. you have no right to sit here and say that that woman is bad for her choice and that her choice was wrong. some people are not as strong as others. im not saying every girl who is raped should kill their baby. im saying they should have a choice and not be punished or critisized for it. you people honestly make me sick.